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24 May 2015 @ 11:35 am
_Archetypes_ Google doc  
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ulLmWz-k_XmI4zKtd7NZtOk_88QrDVgOKzwkOI8dZ20/edit#heading=h.sw2wvjxni04t

If you would please, read it through and tell me about plot holes and confusing parts. _Then_ if you want to, got for the typos and a such.
 
 
 
Bretbretw on May 25th, 2015 08:18 pm (UTC)
What sort of turn around time are you thinking?
matapampamuphoff on May 25th, 2015 08:35 pm (UTC)
I want to have four or five ready to go in quick sequence. Mages still needs work, so probably early July.
Bretbretw on May 25th, 2015 09:01 pm (UTC)
Right. The boost readership thing.

I've noticed that some other authors have said that mailing lists (with links in the back of each book) have been hugely helpful. I assume you're aware of this, but just in case not, I wanted to mention it. For example, Robert J Crane (who seems to have sold 100,000+ books) wrote ( http://www.robertjcrane.com/p/indie-author-advice.html ):


"I implemented a mailing list with links in the back of my books.

"I didn't fully finish implementing this until February 2013 (and I kick myself for failing to do so) but HOLY CRAP does it make a different. If you're wondering what I'm talking about with a mailing list, go read THIS POST on Kboards by my friend SM Reine. I'll wait for you here until you get back. Make sure you read her follow-up posts as well, down the thread.

"This single change is revolutionary. If you're waiting for your audience to come find you every time you release a book, you're basically throwing your baby into the waiting wolves of the Amazon algorithms. Want to make a bigger splash? Want to "game" the system? Get your damned fans to all buy your book at once. It'll make a bigger splash. If you have half a dozen cherry bombs and you light them one at a time, it's like launching a book with only social media to inform your audience. Pop. Pop. Pop. Pop!

"Get a mailing list together and send that puppy while you're informing your Facebook and Twitter, and it's like wrapping those cherry bombs into a stick of dynamite. It can help you push your new release up the genre list and garner you exposure for your entire series. "Oh, look, book #9 of this series looks interesting. I should go back and read book #1." Boom, you hooked a new reader. And best of all, once they sign up for your mailing list, they're added to the dynamite for future launches.
"
matapampamuphoff on May 25th, 2015 10:58 pm (UTC)
Yeah, I've got a mailchimp account, and I need to start using it. I need to reedit my early books, get the active links list on them and a "sign up to be notified of new releases" link.
Bretbretw on May 26th, 2015 04:25 am (UTC)
I'm on a couple of authors' lists and it definitely enabled me to buy their books. Without the emails, I might've completely forgotten about them, and even if I didn't forget, it would've been many months before I noticed they had another book.

You're the only author I follow on such a continuous basis.
Michawl DolbearMichawl Dolbear on May 25th, 2015 10:49 pm (UTC)
As I said before, if this is "How the Trips grew and accepted each other and Archetypes" I think a early scene is needed to contrast with the rescue and sea battle co-operation and usage of talent scene at the end.

I see the ninja's babies have gone. If they no longer exist, a few words as why the Wine otG didn't have its usual effect. If they are a secret, some foreshadowing.

I have been thinking about Jade giving Lemon as a false name. Isn't this dangerous given less than a thousand witches ?

Either there is a Lemon or someone may know or know of Lime and hence detect a fake(though if both colours and fruit were usedit's more complex ?)
matapampamuphoff on May 25th, 2015 11:17 pm (UTC)
There is a Lemon. As you say, the people at Rip Crossing know all the witches. Although as I think about it, Jade might be more likely to imitate her sister Crimson. Who is known and recognizable, but who rarely visits Rip Crossing, and wouldn't strike a false note with anyone.
Bretbretw on May 25th, 2015 11:34 pm (UTC)
Whatever her name, I think it would be easier on the reader if was just not mentioned.
matapampamuphoff on May 26th, 2015 01:08 am (UTC)
Jade's first kill was there at the Rip Crossing Inn. I think it needs to be clear that she's disguised.
Bretbretw on May 26th, 2015 03:44 am (UTC)
OK. Can you make it clearer when it happens? The problem I had as a reader was that it seemed like Yellow was a black widow and we didn't find out until many pages later that perhaps it wasn't really Yellow.

With a nameless witch, Xen would just say something like, "That was probably Jade disguised so it didn't look like her..."

Or perhaps you could add something like Peter noticing an illusion or something towards the end of the encounter? Or was she disguised via a morph?

Or perhaps switch to an unused witch? Yellow is used in other stories, isn't she?

Or it's not that big a deal, just a bit confusing, so it wouldn't hurt too much to just leave it.
Bretbretw on May 25th, 2015 11:38 pm (UTC)
I've scanned through it. I forgot it was fairly short. It flows well. I made a couple of comments.

Are you committed to the name _Archetypes_? It's more just about the triplets. You could just name it _Triplets_, for example.

I'll do another pass for typos later this week or next weekend.
Bretbretw on May 26th, 2015 10:09 pm (UTC)
I have a question on corridors regarding two people going through in opposite directions at the same time. For example, from _Archetypes_, "What happens if someone is going the other direction at the same time?"

For the non-magical, they can just see through the corridor, so wouldn't they see someone about to enter the other side? And if so, wouldn't they just wait?

If I stick my hand in one side of the corridor, does it come out the other side immediately? Or is my hand in "limbo" until all of me enters the corridor? And then I get expelled out the other side?

But corridors are just bubbles, aren't they? Many people can be in a bubble at the same time (Xen & friends spying on Hoon in Young Warriors, Ra'd & family in Warriors of the One, etc.), so why couldn't multiple people pass by each other in a corridor?
matapampamuphoff on May 27th, 2015 01:16 am (UTC)
People can pass each other, but the sensation is unpleasantly like motion sickness. So most places either alternate, or get two parallel corridors. But there's always some jerk in a hurry who shoves through.

Dimensionally, the limbo bit is virtually indetectible. You go about halfway and sort of get sucked through the rest of the way. Really only noticeable if you're going very slow or trying to stop. For loosely connected things, like a team of horses and a wagon, there can be a jerk and lurch, and if there's not enough room, the horses can be shoved into whatever is in the way. You've got to try pretty hard, though to really injure or kill yourself.

Gates are roughly the same phenomena, but with a lot more power behind the shove, and stopping doesn't happen, no matter the consequences. The powered gates even more so, to the point of solid masses in both places for too long (2 or 3 seconds, perhaps? I haven't committed to anything, an eleven meter vehicle needs time to drive through.) heat up and then shred and get thrown both directions. Very nasty and almost always fatal to the people involved.

In part 5 we had what could be generously called a poorly thought out really, really stupid prank that could have been fatal. Or an attempt to murder Ra'd that would have seriously damaged Ebsa's vehicle with probable injuries to his passengers and possible fatalities there as well, as his crawler would have been inches from the expulsion of hot shredded Flat, if Ebsa hadn't turned and gotten out of Ra'd's way. Or if he'd turned too soon and jammed in the gate, the end of his own vehicle would have been shredded.
matapampamuphoff on May 27th, 2015 01:20 am (UTC)
Actually corridors on the One World, with metal vehicles, will be more dangerous than on Comet Fall. But still not as dangerous as a gate. But learning to not enter the corridor until there is very obviously room for your car on the other side is going to need to be hammered into driver's heads.
Bretbretw on May 27th, 2015 04:00 am (UTC)
So that's mostly what I thought.

But what I'm confused about is why a bubble like the one Xen used to spy on Hoon (a bubble with 2,3, or more holes) seems to act so much differently than a bubble with 2 holes that they want to be a corridor. Do they do something different when they create a spy bubble versus a corridor bubble?
hollybambolo on May 27th, 2015 04:20 am (UTC)
Some of the plot seems to be, well, flat, maybe. Will, he's got his encounter with the Sea Hag, his encounter with the enemy ships where he declares himself God of Justice, and he's pretty much okay with being that. Settles right into it, very little discomfort, he's got a few moments of learning how to handle the judge, but there's not much of seeing the character change and grow.
I know Peter and Phillip's names are set, but they might as well be the same for all I can keep them straight. So I'm going to call them Stranger and Gambler here.
Stranger has the best plot, in my opinion. Starts out basically spoiled teen godling with obnoxious older sisters, ends up mostly an adult, with a maybe-probably-girlfriend (Flare), enough sense of responsibility to find the people who can teach him how to do what he's going to do anyway and commit to them. His story feels complete to me, not that he's done, but that he's gotten from where he was to a place that's an okay start on adulthood.
Gambler flips too fast from not being okay with/believing what he is to accepting it. Or maybe it's just that the entire thing is from Will's POV, if it happens during the sea battle. The scene with Harry is a good one, but very short and maybe too early--seems like Gambler is more comfortable with what he is at the end of that than during the sea battle.
I'd have liked to see the scene where Gambler brought the ninjas home to meet the folks, just for fun, and I'd like to see maybe a bigger scene between Will and Michael--Michael having been active during the time the mermaids came into being (as per the River/Simon story in Exiles). While Will ends up reading to a baby mermaid, how does he get from one night stand to visitation rights? I think you added a bit to the Harry scene I mentioned above for Will. That helps with Will.
Bretbretw on May 27th, 2015 03:15 pm (UTC)
Well, the plot might not be as driven as some of Pam's stories, BUT, we (or at least I) strongly encouraged Pam to split the stories up to make the flow more coherent. And I do think the flow is much, much, much better just focusing on the triplets.

I like your suggestions regarding "Gambler" and the baby mermaid.
matapampamuphoff on May 27th, 2015 06:55 pm (UTC)
I do, however, need to emphasize the the driving problem for the story--which is basically "These boys need to grow up!"

I'll add something that says that, and also something to show Will's very low opinion of his brothers, his _dislike_ of what they are. And hopefully at the end, his _appreciation_ of them for what they are. I think that would do as character development for him.
Bretbretw on May 27th, 2015 07:56 pm (UTC)
Can you add something to that effect at the very, very beginning where Michael and Trump force them to do the rotation because they "need to grow up?" That would set the plot from the very beginning.
matapampamuphoff on May 28th, 2015 03:29 am (UTC)
I'm not done, but I have stuck some things in, marked with orange highlights, if you're curious. I think I need to map out that first sea battle and do a bit of research, and there are some typos i haven't fix yet, but we're about done here.
Bretbretw on May 28th, 2015 05:35 am (UTC)
One typo (I think) in the new parts and one comment (marked with the usual %%).

Except for distances (and therefore speeds) and perhaps size of the major pieces of ice, nothing wrong with the first battle. Tactics and wind direction looked good.

The fastest historic sailing vessel ever managed to sustain, one time, 22 knots[1]. English/Spanish Man-o-War would max out around 9 knots[2], though Man-o-War may mean something much different in this story (in which case it may make sense to describe it) as a typical historical one might have 100 cannons and be 200 feet long. Brigantines have a top speed of maybe 10 knots and that's because the top speed for a 60 foot boat is 10 knots due to the physics of water drag, no matter how much sail (unless of course it's a catamaran or other planing hull, but those don't make very good warships).

You don't say what type of ship the Whip-Poor-Will is, so it's hard to guess how fast it will move. The max speed is always constrained by length[3], the longer it is, the faster it can go (again, ignoring catamarans).

So you could pick 10 for the brig, 9 for the man-o-war, and 7 knots for Whip for max speeds (90 degrees from wind); then 8, 7, 6 running downwind, and 6, 5, 4 into the wind. Currents will have a huge effect on how far they actually travel, but limited effect on relative distances.

Anyway, the total distance traveled by the Whip during this night battle will be around 50 miles total, the brigs maybe 75.

Refs:
[1]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_of_the_Seas_%28clipper%29#Fastest_speed_ever_recorded_for_a_sailing_ship

[2]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man-of-war

[3]http://www.psychosnail.com/boatspeedcalculator.aspx
Bretbretw on May 28th, 2015 05:45 am (UTC)
By the way, I love the first addition with "Go. Grow. Up." I think everything flows quite well from that.